Category: Geeks r Us
Hi all.
I hope this topick to become an interesting conversation.
So i was wondering how do you use the computer?
Do you know aproximately how the screen is layed out and rafly where things are? Before learning a screen reader did you learn basick windows commands first?
Do you explore the computer on your own or do you do exactly what your teachers told you to do things when you learned computers?
The reason i am asking is because i think there are two main categories of blind computer users.
The first category is the people who know well their computer, and know exactly why they take the actions they need to do. They don't just know one way but all the olternatives.
For example to shut down the computer. People could do it in many ways.
1. By pressing alt+f4 in the desctop.
2. By going to start, pressing the letter U and then find shut down.
3. By going to start, press up or down untill they find shut down or tern off etc.
So my point is that a good computer user should know all these methods and not just one of them.
An experienced computer user should be able to use the computer no matter what screen reader they are using because the programs still work in the same way by using basic windows commands.
An experienced computer user would know how to restart when the screen reader crash or how to start narator etc.
The second category are the people who learn some commands to do like i don't know how to describe it. Like learning a song or like a machine. They only do what they learned, in the same order etc without exploring on their own. they don't know any olternatives in kace of an emergency, and they are stuck if what they learned doesn't work for any reason.
So my question is what kind of computer user are you?
Or if you are a computer teacher how do you teach? Do you teach the students just a set of commands to learn or do you go through the operating sistem, the basic shortcut keys, etc? Do you give to the students the oportunity to try a variaty of screen readers and see what they like or do they only learn one?
I hope what i wrote makes sence and i look forward to read your respons.
I'm somewhere between the 2. I've been using the computer a long time, and know many ways of doing things. (The example of how to shut down the computer is a good one.) I usually can get things back in order even if jaws has crashed, and even if narator is not being responsive. I've used windows long enough to know how it acts. However, I don't have an especially good idea what things look like on the screen to a sighted person. I have trouble picturing things in general. I do however know what should be there, and can, most of the time, get enough information to a sighted person that they can follow my instructions.
I've tought computers and other accessibility technology before, though I usually wasn't the one making the lesson plans, so I only tought what I was told to for the most part.
I guess I'm more the first type (I think I have a good idea about what goes on under the hood on a computer). But, I used to train people to use the computer, and I taught both ways. Some folks could care less about various ways of doing things, their attitude is just show me what to do to accomplish my goal. In other words, "tell me the time", not how to build a watch.
On the other hand, there are things that I learned to work with and have trouble when someone else does it another way. For example, I have always used the classic start menu in windows/xp rather than the regular xp start menu. When I'm working on another computer it drives me wild if they don't have the classic start menu on. In fact, this is such a problem that I switched mine to the regular xp start menu just to get used to it.
As far as visualizing the screen, I have always had a nack for visualizing the screen. When I was a computer programmer, I spent so much time designing screen layouts that it became second nature to me.
As usual, Good question Nikos, thanks for asking.
I'll watch to see what others say.
Bob
Nikos,
I really like this topic. When I first began dabbling in computer use, I was a do-what-I-was-told type user, because seemingly everything else I would try would result in a crashed system. LOL. But as the months progressed, I discovered my computer teacher was quite inept and sought more efficient ways to complete tasks than those he provided. I found them.
So here it is, eight years later, and I proudly classify myself a more-than-one-wayer.
Oh, BTW, "shutdown -s", typed from the run dialog (Windows+r), will shut down the computer also.
Awaiting the thoughts of others,
Jim
I am in the group with the experienced computer users. I know many ways to accomplish one task, I program, I have used many if not all the screen readers out there.
BTW, you can turn off the computer by going to command prompt, and typing in "shutdown /s" without the quotes. You can also press the power button. You can also unplug your machine. You can also press ctrl+alt+del and press s and find shutdown.
Thanks all for your comments. Very interesting. And thanks for the shut down from the run dialogue. I didn't know this one lol.
Personally i think i learned most of it on my own by exploring and sometimes by breaking the computer but i think i learned from my mistakes. I also learned ffrom one of my friends who is good with computers. I had some good and some bad computer teachers myself. Some of them would just read from the book and follow it in the past when we still did dos lol.
I came out with the idea of this topick from the nvda mailing list. I saw people complaining because nvda didn't behave as jaws and made me wonder if people learn jaws or the computer lol. As i said before a user who knows standart windows navigation etc shouldn't have any problems in the most part using the computer with any screen reader.
You are right about people not having any problems with any screen reader. However, there is a difference between being able to do something, and being comfortable doing something.
I have always been a jaws user, but before I taught someone on window-eyes, I would always use we for at least two weeks exclusively before training them. Otherwise, I would be less likely to point out the good features of we.
I maintain that the worst screen reader you'll ever meet is the one you are starting to learn, and the best one is the screen reader you are leaving.
Just my thoughts.
Bob
I taught at a computer camp for the Blind for a few Summers (for the extra cash and because I love helping people). In teaching, I've found that it's better if you know more than one way to accomplish a task. I, too, have used the three main screen readers on the market, have dabbled in programming, and have just played around to see what worked and didn't.
In risk of sounding snarky and cold but not caring much: the quotes were meant to emphasize what needs to be typed, and turning off your computer with the power button does not always yield willing results when booting up next time.
No, it doesn't, but it is a way to shut down the computer.
You can also skip paying your electric bill, but, that's taking things a bit far, don't you think?
Bob
lol Bob.
I remember when we used dos we could just close all the programs and then swich off the computer. No shut down or anything.
Did you see people shouting at the computer or hitting it when things don't go how they expect it? I think it is funny. It is not likely that the computer will behave after that. It will probably get worst lol.
That will work sometimes on some minor problems such as loud fans etc. However, it's not a solution that's recommended to bring on better performance in computer games.
Bob
Great topic! As a user, I'm probably somewhere between the two extremes. I ask for help to get the task done, and try to find other ways to accomplish it.
As a teacher, I have a rather bizarre philosophy. My first goal is to put myself out of business on an individual basis. When I've done my job right, my phone won't be ringing off the hook, or my e-mail won't be full of questions. I'll have figured out which of my students have the best understanding of certain tasks, and will, without hesitation, go to them for help and advice when needed. When I've really been able to do my job right, you could listen to a conversation between myself and a student, and wonder who is who. Depending on the user, I'll teach mostly windows as opposed to screenreader commands. If someone is only going to use one screenreader, I'll certainly discuss the advantages of using the windows-based options, but won't emphasize them quite as much. I'm a teacher first, and a techy second. I also teach people how to know what and if they are doing something wrong by the feedback they're getting from the computer. I'll occasionally sabatage a computer by turning down the volume or leaving a disk in the drive, or unplugging a cable. Its really important to teach people how to diagnose and problemsolve on their own.
Lou
I sometimes smack the screen when I get annoyed with the PCs at college. It's sometimes funny, because whe n I was at my old college, I did that and I must have pressed one of the buttos and apparently I turned the rwriting on the screen green! Hahaha! I used to use Hal as my screen reader for several yers util I started college last year, then started using JAWS. Supernover is the same as hal, hal, but with the magnification included. I have tried using NVDA and found it the same as supernover and hal (the most annoying screen reader in the wold) and I hav just got a copy of window eyes.
I don't know if I was shown the windows commands, or the ones for that screen reader, but i like finding things out myself as well, so I like messing around with the computer quite a lot. The only trouble is, I get really annoyed when it doesn't do what I want it to.
I am a supernova user.
I think supernova didn't work well on the internet before version5. I think maybe your college had an old version of it. Now the latest version is 8 i think but i have 6.5.3 on my computer and i am happy with it.
I will admit that on the internet it could be better but it mainly works well if pages are designed well such as the zone lol. But jaws is much better and ffaster for internet brousing.
I don't think there are good and bad screen readers. Each screen reader is good for different people. Some people might like one and somebody else might like another. I personally i like all of them lol. Each has its good points.
If i didn't use jaws i wouldn't be able to use sonar and the free scripts from www.jsonar.org.
If i wasn't using supernova i would have problems reading Greek documents. I know jaws now comes with real speak but with the real speak voices you have to use one voice for each language. English is not readable with the Greek voice so i would have to swich synthesisers all the time. On the other hand supernova comes with orpheus another synthesiser with a Greek voice which reads English as well without changing voice or language. The English with the Greek voice is not as good as reading with the UK or US English voices but i don't have to swich all the time.
So what i am trying to say is that somebody should give constructive feedback and try and see the good and bad points for each. Not oppiniated only feedback driven from preference. lol. I hope i make sence.
Nikos, you make perfect sense. Knowing the applications a person wants to use as well as the individual are the two ingredients that make a good match of the individual and assistive technology.
Lou
I don't agree. Yes, there applications that people want to use, but without knowledge of the computer as a whole, you won't get anywhere if that app crashed.
Nicos, I definitely agree with your comments on different screen readers being good for different people in different situations. I use that argument for screen readers, as well as the various PDA/notetakers when asked about them.
To post 17, you are right, however we need to take into account the degree of interest and ability on the part of the end computer user. I think its more important for us as blind people to know what to do if our technology crashes, but not everyone has the inclination or ability to learn much more complex tasks than to use the application and the screenreader together. Personally, I like knowing what's going on as much as I can, because I can diagnose problems better, but its kinda like the person who drives a car, compared to the person who changes his/her own oil, compared to the person who can rebuild the engine.
Lou
Hmmm! I guess I'm an intermediate computer user. Not an experienced computer user or an ameter computer user, but an intermediate computer user. I can't (or rather, don't like to) program the blimming things or load the reboot disk myself when they crash as I am after all, only a JAWS user and I know if my desktop or laptop were to pick up another virus, I'd seriously be in the cow pat, but I'm pretty efficient when it comes to the internet, installing various bits and pieces of software, mostly Real Player, MS Office, Skype, Itunes, VG and Flash Player, I can fix minor problems that crop up here and there, which is more than our Grandparents could really do if their machine were to start playing up as they were born in the age of the manual/electronic typewriter and they basically relied on that for communication and sending letters to friends. As for what I do while using the computer, I have my chair in just the right possition, my hands in the right possition with the fingers curved for the best performance, I use just any Windows or JAWS shortcuts that spring to mind, like JAWS F7 for the Links list, JAWS F11 for the system tray Etc. Within the JAWS list though, especially if I know the website and the links I want to click on, I just hit the corresponding letters and press Enter or Space to click on the links. Same springs to mind when I'm not using the internet and I'm sorting various files and things out, virus checking Etc, I'll just press the corresponding keys and Space or Enter in to the various menues and programs I want. I'm all for short cuts or quick sollutions to stuff and stuff. I couldn't imagine being any other way.
Jen.
I am definitely an experienced computer user. When I each others I show the one method, then I show them the easier ones. i encourage them to not be afraid and explore; you won't know how it will work or how something will be if you don't try it. If there is a crash then well, things are not perffect in this world. It really helps to know not only alternate ways of doing things but rather how these things are accomplished. I have written a few programs (in python to be specifically) and I consider it one of my favorite languages. it really gives you understanding on how data is handled. I try to introduce and explain these concepts to the people i teach. Many find it interesting and believe me, it really works when you need to make someone like computers lol. I have rate of voice high and vervosity levels to advanced (very little output). If something goes wrong then i o course trace back and such. Doing as much research as possible doesn't hurt and trust me it really benefits you. Not only on accessibility but on computers as well. Get your hands on different kinds of operative systems. Learn most of the commonly heard terminologies. What exactly is a processor? What exactly does the computer do from shutdown to beginning? Study the assembly programming language.